Mutsekwa hit the headlines recently over reports claiming he had been holding ‘secret talks’ with military and police hardliners. Zim Independent editor Dumisani Muleya was arrested for publishing this story, but he told SW Radio Africa that he stands by the report and that Mutsekwa gave the newspaper the information. Has the MDC-T made a u-turn regarding the service chiefs and calls for security sector reform?
Broadcast: 09 May 2013
VIOLET GONDA: My guest on the programme Hot Seat is Mr Giles Mutsekwa who is the MDC Secretary for Defence and also the Minister of Housing. Welcome on the programme Mr Mutsekwa.
GILES MUTSEKWA: Thank you.
GONDA: Mr. Mutsekwa first of all can you give us your reaction to the recent arrest of journalists from the Zimbabwe Independent who were arrested after they published a story claiming that your party, the MDC-T, was engaged in sensitive high-level talks with the country’s security chiefs?
MUTSEKWA: What we have done as a party is we have given that responsibility to our party spokesperson who I’m sure has given sufficient response to those arrests you are referring to.
GONDA: Okay, but did you meet with the security bosses though?
MUTSEKWA: As I say we have already issued a statement and we will not be dwelling on that issue anymore.
GONDA: What does the statement say because we haven’t received that it?
MUTSEKWA: I’m sure the party spokesman would be the best person to answer that. We can dwell on the other issues but certainly what we have done as a party is that we’ve agreed that a statement will be issued by the party through the party’s spokesperson and I’m talking about this particular issue of arrests.
GONDA: I spoke to Zimbabwe Independent editor Dumisani Muleya and basically he stands by his newspaper’s story saying that they got the information from you. So I’m asking you if you deny that report and meeting with the generals, and also what do you make of comments made by General Chiwenga and the Police Commissioner denying holding talks with you?
MUTSEKWA: I do not want to make that issue public debate anymore. I think that’s sufficient to say that.
GONDA: I understand that but can you let us know if you did or did not meet with them?
MUTSEKWA: I think the best thing that we can do is to talk about the security sector realignment; that’s a subject that I think we must always dwell on, and as I say for various other reasons, we do not want to revisit that particular story that you are referring to.
GONDA: So what do you mean by security sector realignment?
MUTSEKWA: What we are saying is that for 33 years since Zimbabwe became independent, the security sector in Zimbabwe has been very unfortunate in that it has had a civilian government that has chosen to abuse our security services. Therefore it is only paramount that because there is now a political dispensation and that there is now democracy emerging in Zimbabwe, our security sector, which has been misemployed – and being misemployed is completely different from them being unprofessional. They might have received professional training but for 33 years of being misemployed obviously takes away some of that professional training that you had. So yes there is an urgent necessity for realignment – realigning their actions and thinking so that it dovetails into the new political dispensation that pertains in the country.
GONDA: So what does your party intend to do especially when the security bosses have time after time, accused MDC leaders of being sell-outs, of being puppets of the west and that they will never salute Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai?
MUTSEKWA: Well firstly it is not their choice that the security sector is being realigned. It is an agreement that was also signed four years ago by Zanu PF and we call this agreement the Global Political Agreement. There is a specific chapter or paragraph that is dedicated to this particular issue and that paragraph only came about because both sides, I’m talking about Zanu PF and ourselves, realized that there was a problem. And Zanu PF in particular realized that the problem was caused by themselves because they had misemployed our security forces for the past 33 years. So that knowledge is obviously evidenced by the fact that together with Zanu PF we made that particular paragraph in the GPA so it’s not up to the practitioners in the security forces to decide whether they should undergo a realignment or not because they are supposed to be subservient to the civilian authority. It is what the civilian body decides what they should abide to.
GONDA: So I’m asking what is the MDC doing about this because elections are around the corner, your party has repeatedly accused the military and even members of the police force of siding with Zanu PF and also wreaking havoc in the country ahead of elections. So what is your party’s strategy in terms of dealing with this ‘problem’?
MUTSEKWA: It is not the responsibility – I think this is where many people misplace this argument – it is not the responsibility of the MDC party alone to ensure that there is realignment of the security forces. It is an assignment that is assigned to the present GNU government. So it’s not just the MDC. The only reason why we in the MDC speak more about it is because we understand that our partners in government Zanu PF are the same people that have been misusing, abusing the security forces.
But totally and truly it is just not the responsibility of one part of the government alone. It is a responsibility of the entire government. So asking me what the MDC are doing about it – what we are doing obviously firstly is to ensure that our partners in government comply with that requirement. But secondly if we get no joy at all within government itself, you know we have got guarantors to this Agreement; the guarantors are SADC and the AU. So what we are obviously going to do is if this persists to be a problem we then refer the issue to our guarantors.
GONDA: So what can SADC do exactly?
MUTSEKWA: Well it’s up to them but if you have been following SADC’s stance and everything else you will recall that President Zuma, who is the mediator at the moment, actually stressed in one of his meetings that the security sector realignment should not be prolonged any more. What that means is that he is seized with the matter.
GONDA: Yes but we’ve heard this since the formation of the inclusive government and we continue to hear the MDC formations complaining that there needs to be security sector reform and this has not happened. So that’s why I’m saying you keep saying Zanu PF is abusing their authority and controlling the security sector so at the end of the day it is up to you – the people who are complaining – to try and do something about it. So what have you done as the MDC formations in the unity government to ensure that these problems that you keep saying are there are resolved?
MUTSEKWA: Violet, the issue, the subject of security sector realignment is not a complaint of our party only. It is a concern to the entire people of Zimbabwe, Zanu PF included. If these people are not realigned, no party is going to benefit from their behavior. So whilst we seem to be the spokespeople in terms of wanting this alignment to be achieved it does not mean that we are the only beneficiary of this realignment. Nobody is going to benefit from a rogue security sector so obviously it is the whole of Zimbabwe that is anxious to see security forces realigned. So yes we might be leading in wanting security realignment but we are only doing it for Zimbabwe and when we say Zimbabwe, Zanu PF included.
But as to what we are going to do, you must remember also that it’s not just a security sector realignment that is topical at the moment, there is also the media that we also want urgently, urgently realigned as well. So those issues to us, unless they are addressed and addressed properly we do not think that there is going to be a credible election. In actual fact we will as well state that we might not be part and parcel of that election.
GONDA: What are you saying? Are you saying the MDC will boycott the elections if there are no media reforms or security sector reforms?
MUTSEKWA: I am saying that the elections that are fast approaching in Zimbabwe needs, in fact before that election is conducted, these topical issues have got to be addressed.
GONDA: Legal experts like Derek Matyszak say there are only three pieces of legislation that absolutely must be changed before elections and that includes the Electoral Act because that needs to be amended to take into account the provisions relating to proportional representation and then other legislation like the Local Government Act and the Provincial Councils Act. But he said media reforms or security sector reforms are not necessary right now before elections and that if Zanu PF hasn’t agreed to these reforms by now in the many years of the unity government, they are not likely to do so in the few months remaining before elections. What can you say about this?
MUTSEKWA: I want to stress that conditions for having a free and fair election in Zimbabwe include that we undertake all issues that have been raised in the Global Political Agreement. There is no issue that is lesser than the other. So the legal analyst that you refer to could have expressed his particular legal opinion but the position of Zimbabwe, the position of the Movement for Democratic Change is that before we dream of any election, all issues must be addressed remembering that we do not refer to security sector as security sector reform, we actually say security sector realignment, but certainly media reform.
GONDA: So how come you were able to hold a constitutional referendum in March without these issues that you are calling for?
MUTSEKWA: When we held the referendum there was no contestation. We were all agreed on what we want to achieve so there was no contestation and therefore there was nobody or no party that was disadvantaged at all – so that makes a hell of a difference. But the elections that we are talking about are a pure contestation because it’s got to produce a winner and that winner has got to be produced by a result that is not going to be contested by the loser. So this is the difference and this is what we want to avoid. We do not want at all to fall back to a position that came in 2008 because that is not good for anybody; it’s not good even for a person who might declare himself a winner. The result simply must not be contested and for that to happen we just must make sure that we fulfill all the obligations as pronounced in the Global Political Agreement.
GONDA: But many believe that the political parties in the unity government are actually just playing games with people and that what is going to happen after elections is just going to be a repeat of what happened in 2008/2009 where another unity government is formed.
MUTSEKWA: Well that is certainly not the view, that is not the aim and that is not the ambition of Movement for Democratic Change. We are only entering this race, which we call an election because we are very, very sure that we will emerge the winner, as long as the playing field is level.
GONDA: So how are you going to ensure that? I’m sorry to come back to the same question, but when you say security sector realignment, do you want some of these service chiefs to be removed from their positions before going into elections for example?
MUTSEKWA: No, no, no, no, no, no Violet. In actual fact this is the biggest problem that we are facing in Zimbabwe because many people are misinterpreting the meaning of realignment. The business of the Movement for Democratic Change, in actual fact the ambition and aims of the Movement for Democratic Change, has never been to replace anybody on make anybody lose their job at all. What we mean by that – in fact it does not mean replacing anybody by anybody, and I’m pleased you asked that question because there has been some serious misconceptions about our meaning of realignment. Realignment simply means that the security sector has got to realize that they are operating under a democratic dispensation as opposed to the environment that they operated for the last 33 years because during that 33 years there was no demarcation, no difference between government and party according to Zanu PF and security sector probably because they were instruments in that particular government were also forced to sing the same tune. This is our major cry, this is our major complaint. In actual fact the realignment itself is not only going to help Zimbabweans it is going to help the security sector itself because they will begin to realize how they can enjoy their profession without being coerced by a certain political party to follow their political ambitions.
GONDA: Again I ask how will you enforce this? How will you make this happen?
MUTSEKWA: Well what the country intends to do is to draw examples of other countries, how they have done it and that will include people in the present structures themselves. You see the security sector is composed of people who we think, with realignment, will be able to discharge their duties professionally. And as I say we will draw experiences from other countries because various other African countries have gone through the same problem. Tanzania had the same problem … their security sector was completely politicized to the extent that they had also to be realigned. So there are various examples where we can draw from but what it means in brief is that firstly the security sector has got to acknowledge that they serve the constitution not a certain political party, not a certain leader of a political party. I think that is the first important issue that has got to be realized. At the moment it is a mix-up.
GONDA: So the MDC will be willing to work with the service chiefs, the people you accuse of being murderers in other words?
MUTSEKWA: We have no problem at all. In actual fact that is one reason Violet, in our history, that we have never, never, never embarked on training our own army. What that should indicate or point to is that we are going to inherit the present structures lock, stock and barrel but the condition is that there must be a realignment. So yes we are very much prepared to work with the people that we might have accused, you must also remember that we have never accused the security services themselves. We had directly accused the Zanu PF party, which we are saying has misemployed them. So our quarrel has never been with the security forces, our quarrel has been with the party that has been in power for the past 33 years who took the advantage of misemploying the security services so that they prolong their illegal stay in power.
GONDA: Over the years your party has accused the police and the military of brutalizing your supporters so what can you say to your members who are listening to this interview, some of them victims of political violence when you say you have no problems working with people you have accused of human rights violations in the past? Why are you changing your position now?
MUTSEKWA: We have never changed our views. We are very consistent in what we have said from the word go. We have never changed our views, we have never changed our policy, we have stated from the beginning that the situation that obtained before we came into government ourselves, the situation that obtained before elections is not as a result of the behaviour of our security forces, it is and I must stress, as a result of the party that ruled Zimbabwe for the last 33 years. So for our listeners and supporters all I am saying is that we are very consistent with what we have said, we know what has happened before, we know the kind of suffering that they have undergone, we are very aware about that but I think the most important thing is to take Zimbabwe forward after we win the elections.
GONDA: Mr. Mutsekwa you have not been consistent on this issue. For example there have been many calls by the MDC, by Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai, by yourself and several other party leaders who have called for police commissioner Augustine Chihuri to be removed from his post. Even the Home Affairs Minister Theresa Makone has said over and over again that Chihuri is one of the biggest problems in the country. When you were a Minister of Home Affairs you also used to complain about these things and saying that your hands are tied, you can’t change the problems in the police force and that Chihuri must go. So this is why I’m asking what has changed for you now to say you have never had a problem with these people?
MUTSEKWA: You see when you take that view that you are making you are personalizing the issue. We are talking about the security services sector. Chihuri is just an individual within the security sector so I am not being inconsistent; the party has never been inconsistent. We have had problems with Chihuri as a person but that does not mean the entire security sector, Violet. So there must be some difference there. I am not denying that we have issued statements complaining about the behaviour of Chihuri and various other, very few individuals in the security sector but that does not mean that that should mean that we are complaining against the entire security sector. So yes I totally agree with you that I have issued a statement personally; I know also that my boss has done the same, I know also that the current minister of Home Affairs has also issued a statement but we were targeting very few people who were misbehaving. That should be different from the security sector as a whole.
GONDA: Have you been silenced into talking about the talks that you have been having with the army generals as a result of the arrest of the journalists from the Zimbabwe Independent?
MUTSEKWA: Well Violet I think we have got to honour certain pledges that we make. I have said that it is the position of my party that we don’t refer to those issues anymore and there has never been any due pressure from anywhere.
GONDA: But Mr. Mutsekwa I’m not personalizing this issue; I’m just stating what your party has said over the years that these service chiefs have been instrumental in using the military and the police in spearheading all operations against the MDC and the reason that I’m asking this is because you yourself last week, we had an interview with you where you said that you’d met with the security chiefs and I interviewed… (interrupted)
MUTSEKWA: You are only coming back with the same question through the back door. I think that is not fair. I think we have addressed that issue and we have addressed that issue fully. I said if you want a response on that issue the party spokesman would be able to give you one. But I think it is only fair that we conduct this interview as we’ve been doing.
GONDA: The point I wanted to make was that observers are saying sometimes it’s premature to talk about such sensitive issues if negotiations are indeed taking place and I’m wondering if this is the reason you are now not talking or if your latest stance is as a result of recent utterances by General Chiwenga and Commissioner Chihuri?
MUTSEKWA: I hear your explanation but all I am saying is that there has not been, there is never going to be any undue influence. All I am saying is that the party has addressed the issue and a statement has bee issued by our party’s spokesperson.
GONDA: And you said earlier on that you could also bring in SADC to intervene on this issue – what can SADC do – short of an invasion?
MUTSEKWA: No, no there won’t be any reason for an invasion in Zimbabwe. No, no we have never dreamt of that and I don’t think it is ever going to be possible at all. That’s not the way to resolve issues. SADC has got all powers, in actual fact what SADC will do and what I know SADC will do certainly is to ensure that there are no elections conducted in Zimbabwe unless all these issues that we have been referring to have been sorted out.
GONDA: But in the long run how do you force the military to be subservient to a civilian government or to a Tsvangirai-led government based on the utterances that they’ve made in the past that they will never salute the Prime Minister and that he’s a sell-out and a puppet of the west?
MUTSEKWA: You see Violet; there are only a handful of people in the security sector who have issued those statements. Very few indeed and I want to stress a very important point here, that the fact that a few people have issued the statements that you refer to, does not mean that the entire security sector will not salute and be subservient to a civilian government. What you will also be interested to know is that the new constitution that has been adopted by people in Zimbabwe during the referendum also is very specific about where the security sector has got to place themselves in terms of civilian control. So it is clear, it is clearly stated in the constitution, but the most important thing is that there is only a handful of people who have uttered those words about the Prime Minister and that should not, and I must repeat, that should not reflect the opinion and the behaviour of the entire sector.
GONDA: Has there been any training regarding the role of the military or the police in a democracy?
MUTSEKWA: If there was training then we wouldn’t be talking about realignment but this is precisely what we are talking about. I am very sure that once things change, once we are over with elections and a civilian government is put in place, a new civilian government is put in place those things will be looked after.
GONDA: But Mr. Mutsekwa, you have been in government for the last four years and if it’s only a few individuals who are a problem, what has stopped you as government from training people in the security sector?
MUTSEKWA: Ha, ha, ha. I didn’t really know that people would ask us what we have been doing for the last four years. The people in Zimbabwe would be the first people to acknowledge that a lot has happened in Zimbabwe for the last four years, merely because of the fact that MDC is part of government. You know we have done a lot of things, we have revived this economy which was in the intensive care, that’s one, the infrastructure in Zimbabwe is now overhauled and completely changed and etcetera, etcetera. The fact that we have not achieved the realignment of the security sector does not mean that nothing has happened in Zimbabwe.
GONDA: No I was talking specifically about this issue of training. Why have you not been able to do that?
MUTSEKWA: But you are also aware that this government is composed of three political parties with three ideological backgrounds and you need to agree on certain issues that we’ve got to adopt as government in cabinet, so one of the contentious issues in government has been whether we should have realignment of the security forces or not. That is what is happening at the moment in our government. So you ask why has that not been happening? Because we have been battling to convince our colleagues in government that this is a requirement.
GONDA: Okay so between now and elections, do you think it is going to happen?
MUTSEKWA: We have every hope, we have every hope. You must also remember that the dates of an election have not been proclaimed yet. We don’t even know when we are going to have elections in Zimbabwe so when people say there is no time, I don’t know what they are referring to because these processes have got to be achieved before we start talking about an election date.
GONDA: After the interview with Giles Mutsekwa, I caught up with the MDC spokesperson Douglas Mwonzora to find out the party’s position on the so-called MDC-T talks with the service chiefs and first asked him for a reaction on the arrest of the journalists who covered the story.
DOUGLAS MWONZORA: We completely condemn the arrest of the journalists by the police. This is meant to intimidate the journalists from reporting factually. We maintain that there is nothing wrong that was reported by the journalists.
GONDA: So the MDC-T, a team led by Mr Giles Mutsekwa has been meeting with the service chiefs?
MWONZORA: Well we don’t want to discuss that as yet but all I can tell you is that the journalists in question, are just being harassed, they’ve done nothing wrong.
GONDA: Okay so how do you explain to people who want to know why you don’t want to talk about that? Is it a lie or have you been threatened into silence since the army generals have come out criticizing…
MWONZORA: No there has been no intimidation. This is a matter that is before the courts and we don’t want to jeopardize the defence of the journalists but all we can say is that they have done nothing wrong and that there is no basis for their arrest. The arrest is as usual meant to intimidate journalists from investigative journalism.
GONDA: MDC-T spokesperson Douglas Mwonzora and before that you heard from the MDC-T Secretary for Defence Giles Mutsekwa.
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