Gonda: Can you start by telling us the latest situation on your humanitarian mission to Zimbabwe?
Carter: Well Graça Machel who is a women's activist and also the wife
of Nelson Mandela and former secretary general of the United Nations
Kofi Annan and I represent the Elders here. Ever since the formation of
our group we have been looking very closely at Zimbabwe and we came
here on a strictly humanitarian mission not to get involved in the
detailed political negotiations which are under the auspices of former
president Thabo Mbeki and SADC, but to understand what is going on in
Zimbabwe.
Our plan was to go into Zimbabwe and meet with the humanitarian workers
and government leaders to see what we as former political leaders could
do to help to publicize the plight of the suffering people of Zimbabwe
and to marshal more assistance and to try and work out better
accommodations between the government of Zimbabwe and those who are
trying to help the suffering people. But to our dismay and surprise the
government of Zimbabwe has refused to permit us to enter the country.
We had understood in advance that if we went to the airport in Harare
from Johannesburg we would be granted visas, but when we arrived in
South Africa and met with former president Mbeki he relayed a message
to us from President Mugabe that we would not be welcome and we would
not be issued visas and not be given any cooperation if we tried to
come into Zimbabwe.
So what we have done is to have some extremely fruitful meetings of
exactly the same kind that we would have had if we were in Zimbabwe. We
have met with Zimbabwean leaders who go back and forth between here and
their home country in business, finance and so forth. And we have
arranged for a large number of Zimbabweans to come from Harare to
Johannesburg where we have been meeting now for the last two days and
we continue to meet today and tomorrow and it has been a very
enlightening and satisfying experience for us. So that is what is going
on with us.
Gonda: I don't know if you have received these reports but the
Zimbabwean government actually denies barring you, saying you have been
advised to reschedule the trip to a mutually agreed date in the future.
What's your take on that?
Carter: I don't understand that. That is not the information we
received. Maybe sometime in the distant future is their plan but they
knew three weeks ago for instance that I was coming. I applied in the
normal way in their embassy in Washington and let them know that we
were coming. I think Kofi Annan and Graça Machel had the same
information we had. Our staff is here under the leadership of the
Elders CEO Chief Executive Officer, Mabel van Oranje and they have been
in Zimbabwe making plans for our trip in the last few days before we
arrived.
Gonda: We talk to Zimbabweans daily and they say the situation is now
uncontainable. You know, especially with the spread of the cholera
epidemic that has killed scores of people countrywide and the
authorities are not dealing with this crisis at all. Now people want
hope. What can you as the Elders practically do? What urgent measures
do you think you can take?
Carter: Well we don't have any authority. What we can do is bring the
world's attention to the horrendous situation that has evolved
throughout Zimbabwe particularly in the last few weeks. The situation
is getting worse by the day and apparently the government has very
little concern for the suffering of the people but obviously their
number one goal is to remain in power. We have become thoroughly
familiar with the power sharing agreement that was negotiated and
signed on September the 15th which seems to be fair and they are
working now on a constitutional amendment that will establish the
office of Prime Minister for the first time to be held by Mr Tsvangirai.
Apparently there has been no indication on the part of President Mugabe
that he has any intention of sharing any real authority with anyone
from the opposite political party, which is contrary to the will of the
people. There is very little doubt in my mind that Tsvangirai actually
won the election back in March, and even after a five week delay the
election authorities – controlled by Mugabe – revealed that Tsvangirai
got a minimal vote. But then with the intimidation of the people and
the political punishment of Tsvangirai and his party members the
run-off became impossible. So it is an illegitimate government imposing
their will on the people of Zimbabwe and they made 4 million
Zimbabweans leave the country.
Some are going back and forth across the border, they have elite status
within the government. They can exchange currencies at very beneficial
rates and they are becoming extremely rich on the plight of the poorest
people.
And of course with the schools basically closing down, the hospitals
are closing down there are confrontations within the streets between
doctors and nurses who want to serve their patients and police who are
trying to control them. Most of the health centres are closed and
everyday the inflation rate continues to go up at an astronomical rate.
People are being deprived of food. Many teachers are being paid less
that US$1 per month. They can't even afford transportation costs to go
to and from school. And now most of the students who are going to
school – and there are very few of them – they go to school only to
receive something to eat.
So the entire situation in Zimbabwe is getting worse and worse. In the
meantime the other African leaders in the Southern part of Africa under
SADC have not taken any bold action. They won't even use their
influence to encourage Mugabe to comply with the agreement that he
himself signed back in September.
Gonda: Do you see a connection between the humanitarian crisis and the
political crisis in Zimbabwe and can one be resolved without the other?
Carter: Well the political crisis is the key to it but the results of
course is a humanitarian disaster that is taking place there. The lack
of political progress is causing the humanitarian disaster. There is no
question that the two are intimately connected and inseparable.
Gonda: So if it is clear that this humanitarian crisis cannot be
resolved until the political crisis is solved – and you stated earlier
on that you will not get in the way of the talks – now if putting
political pressure is not your mandate then who can?
Carter: The ones that can of course are the other African leaders who
have this responsibility but make no effort to deny that. But they have
been completely ineffective and very timid in encouraging or forcing
Mugabe to accept the results of the negotiations that he, himself
approved back in September. So he has retained complete power – and
there is no indication from any of the leaders who have come out from
Zimbabwe to talk to us, including Ambassadors of major nations that he
has the intention to doing so. So I think that quandary in the
political situation is what's causing the continued escalation of the
humanitarian crisis.
Of course the key to the SADC power and influence is in South Africa
and former President Thabo Mbeki has not performed that duty as an
interlocutor or negotiator or an expeditor – he has several titles. We
have met with him and I don't think he has shown any inclination or
desire to put real pressure on Mugabe.
Gonda: And obviously you have formed this highly regarded and globally
respected group that is trying to bring some sort of moral correctness
in this world but what measures can you as the group of Elders actually
take considering the political mess in Zimbabwe and considering that
the regional leaders – as you said – are completely ineffectual and
very timid?
Carter: Obviously the Elders don't have any political authority
ourselves, but what we can do is bring attention to the continued
plight of the people. To let the people of Zimbabwe know that we are
here and paying attention to them and we understand their plight. We
are doing whatever we can and when we return to our different homes –
in our communication with our own people and those who are providing
donor assistance – we will continue to strengthen the supply of food
and medicines that are very much needed in Zimbabwe and to strengthen
the determination of the Zimbabwean people to let them know that the
outside world cares very much about them.
And so we will continue to stay involved in the process and of course
write op-ed pieces and do interviews of this kind. But the main thing
that we wanted to do was to come here and get to know the Zimbabwean
people and what their developing catastrophe is and we will continue to
do everything we can about it. But the political responsibility still
rests upon the leaders of these countries, the nations in Southern
Africa – particularly those that are contiguous to Zimbabwe.
Gonda: And how do you respond to accusations by the Mugabe regime that you have partisan interests.
Carter: We don't have any partisan interests, our only interest is in
the people in Zimbabwe who are suffering. We don't have any ties to any
political group.
Gonda: How do you respond to people who say perhaps you should have
defied the regime and actually gone to Zimbabwe rather than wait until
a later stage, when people are currently suffering – because you would
imagine that if the crisis was this catastrophic where people are dying
on a daily basis they would have actually allowed you in but they
didn't?
Carter: Well it's impossible for any average citizen to go into a
country when the President of a country and his regime is determined
that you cannot come in and you cannot get a visa, you can't get a
pass, you can't get any sort of protection when you get there and you
don't know what's going to you from the regime itself. So it was a
waste for us to go in after President Mugabe decided that we could not
come in and that was his decision.
And I think this is further proof that the regime is much more
interested in retaining political power and of course some of them are
profiteering enormously financially by manipulating the currency and so
forth and benefitting from the catastrophe of their fellow citizens in
Zimbabwe.
So we will continue to try and maintain interest on the humanitarian
plight of the people of Zimbabwe and hope that they can understand –
through your own broadcast and other means that we genuinely care about
them and that the outside world has not forgotten about them. And we
will continue to work on this problem until they have the freedom and
an end to the abuse that's being imposed upon them and the deprivation
that is being caused by their own political leaders.
Gonda: You did meet with the Prime Minister designate Mr. Morgan Tsvangirai. What did he have to say about this?
Carter: Well, he is very concerned about the people there. He was
hoping that we could go into Zimbabwe and he is very eager, according
to what he says, to comply with the agreement of September the 15th and
to get Amendment no.19 passed that would establish the office of Prime
Minister, which he expects to occupy in accordance with the agreement
that Mugabe accepted back in September.
Gonda: You said at your press conference in South Africa that you have
never been refused a visa to undertake a humanitarian mission. So do
you feel you were snubbed by the regime?
Carter: (chuckles) Well I don't feel that. It doesn't hurt me.
Obviously it does hurt the ability of all of us Elders to report first
hand on what's going on in the streets, homes, in schools and in the
hospitals and the food lines and so forth of Zimbabwe. All we can do is
report what we have been told by the people who have come to meet us
from Zimbabwe. We were able to get a number of visas approved and to
get aeroplane tickets for people to fly from Harare to Johannesburg and
back. So we have learnt everything we could but unfortunately it is
second hand. But I think the information we got is accurate.
We also learnt that the leaders of the donor nations and also the
leaders of non governmental organisations like Save the Children, Care
and World Vision and so forth have no relationship at all with the
national government in Harare. They won't even talk to them or
acknowledge that there is an economic and humanitarian catastrophe in
Zimbabwe. So they are isolated from Zimbabwe almost as much as we are.
Gonda: And a final word to the people of Zimbabwe?
Carter: Just don't forget all of you who live in Zimbabwe and listen to
this broadcast that not only the elders who couldn't be permitted to
visit with you but I think the leaders of many nations in the world and
those who are in authority are increasingly concerned about your plight
and we hope that this could be resolved soon and we are praying that
your suffering will be alleviated.
Gonda: Mr President thank you very much.
Carter: I have enjoyed talking with you. Thank you.
Gonda: That was former US President Jimmy Carter one of the members of
a group called the Elders which was created by former South African
President Nelson Mandela to promote Humanitarian causes.
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