Lance Guma: Hallo Zimbabwe and thank you for joining me on Part 2 of this Question Time interview with former guerrilla commander Wilfred Mhanda, known more popularly as Dzinashe Machingura.
On Wednesday we spoke to Mr. Mhanda about a variety of issues including his relationship with Robert Mugabe and the late Solomon Mujuru. We continue the discussion this Friday in place of Reporter’s Forum and I got the interview off by asking him what he made of the assassination of Josiah Tongogara.
Wilfred Mhanda: Again like I said I don’t indulge in speculation because at the time when he died I was actually in prison myself so I’m really not a journalist who indulges in speculation. But I have said broadly, the circumstances that we had the grand design, after the fall of Portugal and the independence of Mozambique and Angola, by the west and the Rhodesians and South Africans to eliminate the external leadership. That was their grand design from the very beginning.
Guma: Okay let’s look at your relationship with the late Solomon Mujuru. In your book it’s pretty clear you felt betrayed by him because you thought he was having consultations behind your backs with Mugabe. Talk us through that.
Mhanda: Yah these were observations and developments that we experienced but they did not in any way stop us from having cordial relations. It was just one of those things that happened and it was a painful period because we believed that had he cooperated with his fellow commanders, I’m sure we would have prevailed over Mugabe, fate would have prevailed and I think Zanu would have been on a totally different political orbit and more amenable to tolerance of divergent views, to espousing ideals of democracy and freedom than at present.
Guma: You’ve obviously had quite a number of experiences with Mugabe; for those who don’t know him, not that there are many but how would you describe him as a leader from your experiences? What are his weaknesses?
Mhanda: I think he is intolerant of divergent views, he is single-minded, he is preoccupied about his position of power. He’s more interested in securing his power than anything else, that for him is the raison d’être, it’s the over-riding consideration and he is intolerant, like I said, of divergent views. And he’s not open-minded, he’s not accessible. He’s not open-minded in the sense that you could read his mind.
He blocks his mind to all others and does not reveal himself. You hardly know who the real Mugabe is or what he’s really thinking, which I think as a leader is not the right thing to do. People have to develop trust and confidence in a leader and be sure that what they are thinking is exactly what their leader is thinking also about.
Guma: You spent quite some time in prison; a few of our listeners want you to talk about that just briefly. How was it like and what did you go through?
Mhanda: Yah I think it was a terrible situation that we went through but we survived simply because of our belief in the justness of our cause and our commitment to our cause. They were sub-human conditions in terms of whether the cell conditions, crammed, crowded, no food, no medical attention – it’s terrible, it’s a terrible ordeal.
It is difficult to imagine that anyone could have survived that ordeal, it was a real hell on earth, and ordeal and like I said, it’s also all well explained in the book and we are not surprised with what is happening now because I think for the majority of people in Zimbabwe, other than the Zanu PF elite, Zimbabwe has literally been transformed into a prison.
People have a hard time making ends meet. It’s like a prison and if you want to understand the nature of a society, just look at its prisons. I think we’ve heard horrendous stories about what has been happening in our prisons and, but that in no way, I think it’s a fraction of what we experienced, whatever might be bad about our prison system.
Guma: The former chairperson of the Combined Harare Resident’s Association, Mike Davis sends us a question; he says was Wilfred incarcerated with Everisto Mwatse a.k.a Grey Mapondera or was he part of a different group? I look forward to reading the book soon.
Mhanda: Yes definitely Everisto Mwatse was arrested together with us because he was one of, he was actually deputy director of our ideological college, that is Wambuwa College and he was obviously targeted, we were arrested at the same time and he was actually extremely helpful towards the end of our, particularly in the last year or so of our restriction to some remote area in terms of his public relations and inter-personal skills.
He actually managed to cultivate links with the common people, the local Mozambicans and also with some of the ex-patriot workers there. That eventually helped us in terms of reaching out to the outside world and also in terms of fighting for our own release. So he was quite instrumental in that.
Guma: There’s a question from Abi Nyoka who wants us to ask you whether the betrayal you feel because of what happened, is the word disappointment or betrayal, because I think he is linking this with what happened after 1980, saying if you feel betrayed, there would be a suggestion that maybe you would have wanted to join the gravy train. Are you not supposed to be happy that you were not part of the madness that we have seen since Mugabe took over? I think that is what he is trying to say.
Mhanda: I absolutely have no bitterness over what happened and I have never really solicited, which I could have easily done, to be forgiven and ‘rehabilitated’ in quotes and go back I’ve never really made that I’m a principled person and I believe in my ideals and I really have no bitterness at all.
The bitterness that I have is that we have betrayed our people. The hope that we gave them, the hope of liberation, the hope of freedom, the hope of democracy, that is what touches me, that is my greatest disappointment, not my personal circumstances.
Guma: Have any attempts been made to court you and have you join the regime?
Mhanda: There are others who would have liked that and attempts have been made by others whom I cannot mention at the present moment but I think the stumbling block would have been, had I accepted, Mugabe himself because I don’t think he would ever forgive me for having spoken out my mind freely.
So yes there were overtures, there were people who approached me from Zanu, from the military and but I simply said no, no ways. It’s based on principle, I turned down those offers. Not that they would have materialized because I’m sure Mugabe would have actually vetoed them.
Guma: Interesting comments, you were quoted talking about Jabulani Sibanda in Zimbabwe Standard newspaper and obviously we would like you to broach this subject and talk about it. Jabulani Sibanda is the leader of the Zimbabwe National War Veterans Association – is he a war veteran?
Mhanda: First of all I would dispute who made him leader, what criteria, what constitution? The constitution of the War Veterans Association is there, has it been followed? As far as I’m concerned, from 1998, there’s been no legitimacy over the leadership of that association so let’s not talk about the leader. He is the leader of the Zanu PF aligned war veterans, I think I would accept that, not war veterans. I’m a war veteran as well, there are many others who don’t believe in him.
Guma: But is he a war veteran?
Mhanda: I cannot say that; what I am saying is from what I heard from authoritative sources within Zipra and former Zipra commanders who were based he joined towards the end of 1976, of 1979 and went for training and when he came back after, he probably finished his training after independence.
How could he be a war veteran when he didn’t participate in the war? War means having fought or having been assigned another responsibility after training to support the struggle. Which struggle did he support in 1980 when the war was already over?
Guma: And Joseph Chinotimba?
Mhanda: Ha, ha, I challenge those who claim that he is a Zanla fighter to show me evidence. Where he trained and who his commander is and who his instructors were. I’m waiting for that.
Guma: It’s been asked by many, we’ve close to four questions from people here saying given your significant contribution to Zimbabwe’s liberation, have you ever considered joining one of the major political parties, the MDC for example?
Mhanda: It’s not a question of just joining political parties. When I went to the struggle, it’s not that I had joined Zanu PF, in fact I’ve never been a formal member of Zanu PF, it’s the ideals that I subscribe to. So really it’s not just a matter of joining this and that.
It’s a question of the ideals and the political programme of the movement that I, it doesn’t mean that I’m opposed to all the political parties. It doesn’t mean there are no progressive forces with Zanu but I subscribe more to ideals and principles the politics at present, more with other interests than just the ideals of freedom and democracy.
Guma: Several years ago we reported on attempts to destroy the Zimbabwe Liberator’s Platform which you led at the time and later investigations also showed that one of the people making accusations at you was actually a member of the Central Intelligence Organisation. Several questions, want to find out from you what has become of the organisation because it’s not as prominent as it used to be in the past?
Mhanda: Yes the organisation is not dead. Yes it was hi-jacked; they took advantage of my trial period and the trial period of my colleague, the Programmes (Manager) which stretched over two years, to actually destroy the organisation in terms of ridding the organisation of its assets from offices, vehicles, furniture and equipment, computers, all that.
So the organisation is still there and what I need to reassure the people, the organization is still there and rebuilding and we will be back on the scene. We are working very hard on that but we are obviously working from scratch, from the bottom so it’s an uphill struggle to reclimb after having fallen but we are actually in the efforts of actually resuscitating the organisation and very soon actually it will be vibrant again.
Guma: You are obviously very familiar with the way Zanu PF evolved from the liberation struggle to where it is, we have a question from Dadirai from Masvingo, she wants to know how you see the succession issue in Zanu PF being resolved because every year there’s speculation and it’s never clear how it’s going to pan out but if you were to engage in a bit of prophesying, how do you see things shaping up?
Mhanda: Like I said earlier, I really don’t wish to indulge in speculation but with regard to succession within Zanu PF, Mugabe succeeds himself. I think a few years ago he said who do you want to succeed? I am here, there is no vacancy here. So what succession do we talk about? There can be no succession during Mugabe’s lifetime, he succeeds himself.
It’s a question of when Mugabe is gone, what happens? And that will throw a totally different dynamic into the power politics of Zanu PF but for now I think it’s an ideal question to ask Mr. Mugabe because he will not be succeeded by anyone as long as he lives.
Guma: But from your feelers? Obviously this is Mugabe’s stance but the mood in Zanu PF – are they happy with him there?
Mhanda: Oh yes they have not been happy with him for a long time. It is known. There was an attempt to put pressure on him to resign and we all remember the Goromonzi Congress where he then changed the goalposts; there was a build-up of opposition to him running again and unfortunately he still wields a lot of power to push his will through but it’s clear he is unpopular. It’s clear he is unpopular, it’s clear he is disliked by the majority.
I think there are a lot of pointers like for example when he started talking about, just before the December Zanu PF Congress or conference was it in Mutare last year, he was the one who single-handedly said we are going to have elections next year.
But this has not been supported by everybody and I remember listening to the Zanu spokesperson, the Zanu PF spokesperson Rugare Gumbo saying we stand guided by our leader, I cannot express an opinion about that. It’s quite clear that his will prevails.
Guma: And finally your book, “Dzino, Memories of a Freedom Fighter”, a lot of people in the Diaspora sending us questions wanting to know how they are able to get the book, obviously there’s a lot of interest in it. What can you tell them?
Mhanda: Yah of course I am not the publisher of the book, I’m only the author of the book. The publishers are making arrangements for the book to be available soon in the UK and I’m sure someone is also working on making it available through Amazon and so forth but I think something that we are still working on with the publishers but I’m sure very soon, in the next week or so it should be available internationally.
Guma: One can’t help but make comparisons between you and Mr. Rugare Gumbo because, this is just an extra question I’m throwing in because almost similar circumstances of victimization during the war, one later integrated into the system, the other not. What are your thoughts on Zanu PF getting Rugare Gumbo from out of the cold?
Mhanda: Yah I think it has to do with a number of calculations and permutations that he had a role to serve in terms of the internal power politics of Zanu PF, particularly with regard to the ethnic dimension of politics. He’s a counter with Emmerson Mnangagwa, as a Karanga politician representative. Unfortunately it’s gutter politics but that’s the way I see it. He was preferred as a counter weight to somebody else, regionally and ethnically.
Guma: Well Zimbabwe that’s former guerrilla commander Wilfred Mhanda, known by his liberation war name Dzinashe Machingura, joining us on this edition of Question Time and we would like to take this opportunity to thank Mr. Mhanda for sparing his time and talking to us. Mr. Mhanda thank you very much
Mhanda: Thanks Lance.
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